The Most Persuasive Man Ever? - The Daryl Davis Story

Another live stream today. So let's see. They're going to send the beacon out, let folks know we're live, see if we get a few people joining in. So today is going to be a little bit of a story time. So go ahead and pull this up. So this is a passage I wrote a while ago there. I got the notification now that I'm live, so hopefully you all did, too. But as you all maybe have seen in some of my videos, I have some on communication and effective communication skills. And I've mentioned and other places around here that I'm working on a book.

I have been for a very long time, too long, hopefully getting to the end of it. I always say that and then never am. But when I was writing this communication book, I heard an interview, and I'd heard about this guy before, this guy named Darrell Davis. And his story really inspired me, and it really intrigued me in a way, too. So I'm gonna talk his story and what we could learn from that as far as from the communication standpoint. And so I call him, you can see in the title, I call him the greatest communicator I've ever come across.

So the question is why? Who is this guy and why? So let me go ahead. I'll tell you his story and share why. I think he is one of the better communicators that we can learn from out there. Okay. So, Darrell, these and his parents, I believe, work, the story goes, work for the state department. So he actually kind of had an interesting childhood where he would, like, travel to many different places and places across the world. So he was born in Chicago. And I remember, I don't remember. I wasn't there, but I remember the fact that he was.

Had come back from one of his trips or something like that. But he was in the Boy Scouts, and so they were marching somewhere. They were doing a Boy Scout march. I think this may have been in Chicago. This may have been, you know, maybe the 1960s. And actually, I don't know where exactly he was at the time. Not super relevant, but he, you know, in a circle around Henry stuff. And I mean, he's. Why were people throwing bottles at me in my direct, like, what was that about? And so I don't know if it was one of the scout weeders and one of his parents had to sit him down and be like, look, the reason people were throwing bottles at you is because you're black.

And I mean, I think he was like the only black kid in this all white scout troop. And, you know, so his reaction was that of confusion. And he's like, and this is funny because this is where I think kids sometimes have more logic than adults in certain ways because, you know, they haven't gotten, like, indoctrinated into our beliefs and our baggage and all that. And so he thinks to himself, he goes, why? Why do these people hate me? They don't even. They never met me. They don't know me. How could they hate me, right?

So, I mean, it's kind of like, you know, the naivete of a child, but also at the same time, like, makes perfect sense, right? Like, why would that happen, right? You know, the baggage over years and years of our divides and prejudices and dogmas and ideologies, you know, that wasn't really present for him. And so I think he just kind of. I think in his mind, he just kind of noted that and, like, always kind of carried around that curiosity of, why did this happen? Right? Why do people hate me? And so we'll fast forward a little bit.

So that was kind of like a pivotal moment for him in this irrelevant moment in this story, and then we'll fast forward to, you know, him becoming a musician. So he was really fascinated and loved r and b music and blues, like Mississippi Delta blues. You know, he was. He had the opportunity to play with people like Chuck Berry and Jerry Lee Lewis, right? And so his profession brought him across the country to, you know, play at all different types of areas and locations, venues, cities. And so he recalled at one show, I think he was like, probably, I believe in the Deep south, you know, played a show, and I think he was sitting at the bar after, and there's a guy next to him, and he's like, man, how'd you learn how to play?

Like, I'm just, like, throwing an accent there. Like, man, how'd you learn to play like Jerry Lee Lewis? You know, and he kind of. I think he maybe said, like, you know, how did, you know, how did a black guy like you learn how to play like Jerry Lee Lewis? And I think Daryl told him, like, oh, Jerry Lee Lewis. Well, and if I screw this up, let me know. But, like, because I'm pretty sure. But he's like, jerry Lee Lewis is black. And he goes, like, I knew him. Oh, wait, hold on. Is Jerry Lew Lewis black or white?

Cause it was I. How did a black guy like you learn how to play? Like, taught me. I knew him. He taught me. So I think that's what surprised him was that, like, wait, you played with Jerry? How to play and I think it kind of, like, blew his mind of, like, how can this, you know, black? I learned, like, from this white guy. Like, it just confused them. And so, you know, so I think the guy just kind of shrugged it off and was like, oh, okay. But at the end of that conversation, you know, and they kind of brought up that racial element he admitted to.

So this where it gets interesting. He admitted to Darrell that he was in the KKK, paid for his drink, and I was like, I'm in the KKK. And, like, just walked off. Okay, right. So it's interesting because they had this, like, very cordial conversation. You know, they went, well, I mean, they, you know, not the conversation you would expect someone from the KKK to have with the black guy. Like, he'd come back to the bar and, you know, so then they actually got to know each other. This is kind of where Darrell's curiosity peaked from when he was a kid, where it kicked back in because he still had that question, how can someone hate me who doesn't even know me?

So I think he approached this relationship with this guy with that thought in mind of like, okay, I'm gonna keep engaging with him and see. And eventually, you know, Darryl kind of went in with this guy and just asked him a lot of questions, did a lot of listening, just built rapport with him. And eventually, this guy, after the course of their relationship, he, like, disavowed the clan. I think, for this guy, maybe it took years later, because, like, through this relationship, Daryl then decided to write a book.

And the purpose of the book was for him to understand why someone could hate him. Lee, find the name. Somebody's got a couple books. Mel Davis book. And then he did a really good documentary that you should check out. Yeah, the clandestine relationships. He started doing research for this book, and the research was a black guy meeting with Klansmen, I believe maybe it was later, but also, like, neo Nazis. And so the funny story was, like, as part of his book, as he was meeting with KK members, someone was like, hey, maybe I should introduce you to, you know, the grand duke or whatever they call one.

I believe it is the grand Duke. So he's like, okay, sure. So he went and to meet this KKK leader, like, some random diner. And I guess, like, he found out later that the guy didn't even, like he knew he was meeting with him. He went to the diner, and this guy shows up, and he's got, like, three bodyguards who are armed, and he's just like, oh, crap. What did I get myself into, sat down with this guy. They had a surprisingly pleasant conversation, given the circumstances, and the leader then invited him to come attend these Klan rallies.

So, you know, again, all this seems like probably very counter intuitive. You're like, why would you do this? Why would you engage with these people? Why would you even give them the time of day? Like, why would you even bother? You know, these are just hateful people. You know, write them off distance as much as possible, shun them, shame them all very probably justifiable things one could do. But, you know, he just took a counterintuitive approach and said, okay, I'll go. So then Darryl, from that point, just started going to clan meetings, like, regularly.

Like, and of course, like, people were confused at first. Like, who is this, like, black guy? Shona? But he just went to the meetings. And so eventually, after you go to meetings, like, you start to get to know people. So then, like, they started to get comfortable with him there because it's just, oh, it's just Daryl. Right? So he just kept showing up and, like, continuing to be non judgmental, not necessarily, like, asserting his opinion on anything, but just kind of being there. And so then after that is when it started to happen where, for example, the guy I first talked about that he met at the bar, eventually, after getting to know him and befriending Daryl, went and told him, I quit.

You know, I left the Klan, you know, because of you. And it wasn't that he, like, did some magic persuasion, and I did call this live, the most persuasive man ever, but it wasn't like he persuaded him in, like, this very direct way to be like, oh, you should leave. Here's why. You should leave. Here's, you know, every flaw in your logic and why you're wrong. You know, he did. And I'll talk about a little bit of how he did do that in a tactful way. But one by one, people started basically giving him their robes.

And a lot of the reason why I believe that happened as well is usually it's so much easier to hate people from afar when we're not around them, when we're isolated. Like, if I live somewhere where there's no mexican immigrants or central american immigrants or, you know, it's easy to, you know, demonize a group that I don't know personally, right. They're over there. You know, it's kind of this, like, alien concept. Like, I don't, I don't know them. I can make up whatever. I can make up whatever lies or exaggerations stereotypes.

I can look at things from the most negative light stamp, you know, whatever I want to do when I don't associate with them, when I don't know any right. And it becomes much harder to hate someone who's kind of bucks those preconceived notions and biases that you have, you know, just being around someone because then you just can't help but to see that shared humanity. Oh, this person, you know, wants the same things I do. They want to, you know, they have a family, and they love their children, and they just want better for themselves and their kids and they're normal.

You know, it's like, it kind of removes that barrier that you have. So, basically, to make a long story short, over time, he just continued to do this and befriend people. And he started basically collecting KKK robes of the people who he essentially converted out of that mindset. And through doing this, even, like. And maybe in writing his book, like, people will send him their robes in the mail, right? So I think he's time I looked this up. I mean, he collected, like, 200 or something. 60. Think about, like, a relative that you have, right?

We all have, like, a relative that's on the opposite political side of the spectrum. You know, you have the stereotypical Thanksgiving where you're. How hard? Extremely difficult. I mean, it's like. It's like, one thing politically, I let alone hatred and prejudice, to have changed the minds and hearts of over 200, you know, extremists. Like, that's impressive to say the least. And so that's why I say my book, that he's the most. The greatest communicator I know. All right, so let's. Let's break it down a little bit to be like, okay.

To see, like, how can. How can we take this information and learn from it? So, you know, in my book, I, you know, break down some different communication skills so some of the do's and don'ts. And, you know, so I have, like, a whole list of, like, I don't know, it's like ten, you know, related, you know, things like going into a situation, thinking about it from a combative. These are also, like, principles underlying communication. You know, like, making certain assumptions. Assumptions. You know, like, assuming people's bad intent, you know, having a desire to win.

I don't know. So there's just, like, a whole bunch of these that I could list off if I had a little more coffee going right now. But, you know, but then also communication skills. Like, I refer to, like, the disarming or aligning skill. So, for example, argument before the other person, can it basically look like being like, yes, you're right. You're not saying you're right. You're saying, well, here's why you're wrong. But if you actually, it's kind of, oh, yes, that, you know, you're right on that.

You know, it disarms them of then bringing your own opinion, and they'll be much more likely to hear what you have to say if you're able to admit fault or not fault, necessarily, but admit maybe you were wrong on something and not even that you were wrong, just admitting that they're right. Actually, you don't have to be like, oh, yeah, I was wrong about that. You could say, no, you're right, you're right about that. However, at the same time, here's what I feel. So aligning, disarming, reinforcing, affirming what people are saying, you know, approaching situations with humility, reflection is another big one.

So just basically repeating what they say back, whether it's in a simple manner of like, okay, so you're saying that you think that black people are inferior, an inferior race. Yes. You know, so you're just repeating these things back. So it demonstrates something called active listening. Right. So I'm not going to list all these off, but just a few off the bat of this is how Darrell did it. Right. So the first one, I think that's important, and that's one of honestly the most important and, like, a good way to distill that down is to be like, ask yourself, like, do they like me?

There's a lot you can, I don't want to say get away with, but there's a lot more you could do in a conversation and a persuasion when someone likes you. And it reminds me of, like, when I was working on an adolescent psych unit with kids who had some, like, pretty severe behavioral issues. And when I approach the situation in a combative, like, you versus me way, I'm the staff, you're the patient. If it's like, a more authoritative approach, right. It would make things way more difficult because everything was a fight, and then they would, like, naturally rebel because they're teenagers and extreme teenagers in a way.

But when I showed them respect, just like Darryl did, dignity, respect, despite the behaviors that I didn't like, they were much more likely to do what I asked them because, like, okay, you got to get to better certain number. You can't be in the hall. You have to do this or that. You got to follow these rules, you know, you have to give people correct, you know, corrections or whatever. Right. And they would be much more willing to listen if I came from a place of, look, I'm, like, asking you to do this, versus I'm telling you to do this, you know, hey, we're kind of buds, right?

We have rapport. Oh, yeah. Evan, he's a cool guy, or appears to be, at least. Yeah, I'll be much more likely to go hang out in my room at this. Oh, that's a really important one. And probably the most important one here, honestly, was the fact that he did build that rapport. And one good way of doing that is just showing up, you know, because I think a lot of these guys in the KKK were so used to, you know, they were so used to people not wanting to be around them or not wanting to engage or them being the bad guys or being outcast, ostracized, you know, and they probably kind of got off on that in a way, you know, like, were these just, like, evil bad guys?

And that's osiverse them mentality. But instead of backing away, he leaned in. Right. So I think that threw him off guard. Yes. I'm here in Australia. Maybe I wanted to have the ocean in the background, but it was kind of difficult for me to see. I was talking to this guy who does, like, spear fishing. He's always in the ocean. We were talking about sharks because now I have a. The fear of shark attacks. It's a long story. I mean, not really, but we're talking about shark attacks. And I don't know if this is, like, true or not.

Maybe it's like, look this up. But he was like. He's like, a little, you know, oftentimes he's like, when there's a shark there, right there used to being these apex predators, so when you. So one thing you could do is, like, instead of, like, running away or, you know, like, actually kind of go towards them because it throws them off guard where they're like, hey, I'm used to everyone being afraid of me. Like, what? So I'm not saying, like, go approach sharks, but of kind of, you know, maybe pleasantly surprising someone versus saying throwing them off guard, per se.

So probably. Yeah, that's probably the biggest one, right where he just showed up. Right. With his friend. His friend at the bar. He just kept showing up. The KKK rallies, he just kept showing up. Then, you know, another big one as well, is listening that we talked about where he did much more listening than he did talking. And that is one of the more important lessons I've learned, whether it be as a therapist, as a friend, you know, even in, like, business situations, like, the more listening you could do versus talking, the better.

I mean, for one, people just like talking, you know, and, you know, being listened to, I mean, it's pretty amazing. Like, you know, it's like sometimes just by listening and reflecting, it's like people often, like, in therapy situations, will, like, solve their own problems and like, wow, thanks. You really helped me. And I'm like, okay, I can say anything. Likable person. People who are better listeners are much more likable. You kind of think of, like, you know, the guy at the party or at the dinner table who's just, like, really loud and kind of talking the whole time and telling these stories, you know, like, yeah, back when I was in Italy and da da da da da, you know, you can't get, like, a word in edgewise with them.

I think they're so smart and important. Right? It's like nobody likes those people that much, you know? Like, maybe you do, but probably not as much as if they shut up, you know, and let other people talk. It's kind of like a ball hog and, like basketball, you know, they think they're so good and they never pass. Maybe they are really good. They just never pass the ball, right. They never show humility, the listening. And then, too, like, you know, these guys probably never really felt listened to.

But I think are what I have to say. It's us versus the rest of the country. Us versus the rest of the world. And so, I mean, that was a big one. Like those reflection skills I talked about affirming the things they were saying that were true. Now, one of the things that he did. And basically, once he had rapport, he was then able to push back. It wasn't just him listening, nodding his head, and, like, me. But, you know, there were times, like, with his first friend where, you know, he was able to point out some, you know, thinking errors, and there's a way of doing it tactfully.

But, like, for example, he said, well, you know, our, you know, it's like they say, like, oh, well, black people, you know, commit more crimes, right? So that's evidence, you know, that, you know, genetically, whites are superior. Something like that. And he said, well, you know, white people are more likely to be serious, be serial killers. Yeah, maybe not, right? So it's like being able to look at things in a different way, but he was able to do that. You know, but if he were to just do that on the first meeting with these people, that wouldn't work very well.

You have to allow people's walls to come down to trust you, and then you're able to do what I call those complex reflections. So be like. So I hear that you say that, you know, because, you know, statistically more crimes are committed, that we're genetically inferior. Well, you know, does the same thing apply for white folks with serial killers? Right. And, like. And so you're not telling them that. You're asking them, right. And probably most of the time in those situations, they will, you know, maybe admit, okay, well, maybe.

Maybe someone is dug in hard and they say, well, no, this is why it's different. And then you kind of do it again because it just doesn't make sense. Right. When you're dealing with what I would call, like, difficult people who have, like, extreme views and extreme takes. And, you know, there's usually going to be a lot of logical fallacies and thinking errors, you know, in their judgment. So sometimes that is a benefit to tactfully point some of those out. Let's see, what else do I have here? Oh, yeah.

So another big one that I talked about is empathy, right? So he was showing empathy for these folks that nobody else would so meant to touch on. That in many ways, you know, he didn't show this, I'm better than you. He didn't, you know, ever attack. So it's kind of interesting as well because, you know, he took what I would call more of a dancing approach than a fighting approach. Now the fighting approach is trying to hurt the other person. It's pointing out always, like, where they're wrong. It's, you know, it's just kind of you versus me.

It's like a debate. And again, like I said, you know, when you're debating at the dinner table, how often does that work when you're trying to convince your uncle that, you know, this conspiracy isn't true, true. Or the extreme political beliefs are flawed or whatever we all believe were correct answer bias. And so it never works. And that's often because we're taking a combative, striking. I call it a striking approach, like punch and kicking. Right? So we're trying to get them to go, you know, so it's like we could win the debate, but what does that do?

It's like, okay, I want. I feel better about anything. Did that change their mind? Did that prompt any. Doesn't, you know, the other person just walks, you know, hurt, salty, and often more dug in. Right. So it's like you won the battle, but you lost the war, you know, so. But again, it's trying to persuade the person, or am I trying to just shame. I feel superior to them. But was that helpful? Probably not. Now, I give the caveat here, because I know this is easier said than done, but this is just an extreme case, right?

So I said at the beginning, one could easily don't want to go talk to people in the KK Jew not wanting to, like, talk to another thing I want. I'm gonna go engage with some neo Nazis. Like, not high on my to do list. So I get it. So I get why it's so difficult, and I won't fault you for not doing that. And again, this is an extreme case, but, you know, asking yourself, where can I do this? Where can I put my anger aside, my ego aside, my prejudice aside, and engage with someone if I really want to enact change?

I'm not saying you have a responsibility to do that, but if that is something you want to do, do. If you are more inclined to engage with someone in a healthier, productive exchange, to maybe actually soften someone's beliefs and change your mind, this is the approach to take, which I call the dancing approach. Right. Which is a give and take. So I'm kind of leading the dance, and so I'm kind of leading someone to where I want them to go, but in a gentle and more tactful kind of way than me. Just kind of hitting them over the head with a club.

Right. They're going to walk away from the dance, probably feeling better than walking away from the fight. Yet I was able to get them to go to a certain place, or at least closer to where I want them to go. It's not like, you know, it's very rare. Even by doing this, you're going to have one meeting, and I'm going to change your mind. You know, that would be really impressive, because Darryl didn't do that in one conversation. It was a series of conversations and engagement and trust being built, that they were able to be open to that change, that their defenses weren't up, that they weren't hardened.

You should check out, too, on this app. I submitted it. I don't know if it's going to be on the app quite yet, but I did an interview with Drew Horowitz, who is an interventionist. Right. So he's dealing with some of the people that are the most dug in, and, you know, people who are, you know, in addiction, and they don't want to go to treatment, you know, so he was like, one of the harder jobs. And he and I talk about this, about the importance of people's walls coming down and how to approach it and not, like, try to force someone, because that's another one of the big relationship blocking behaviors is when someone is feeling controlled, right?

Whether you're purposely doing it or not. But when someone feels like you're trying to control them, that's one of the biggest things that's going to bring their walls up, and there's going to be no productive exchange, no possibility for them to warm up, soften their beliefs for you. So it was interesting. Last little thing I'll say is that in the documentary. So here's, I think, a good important lesson, right? Because we're all human, including Daryl, the greatest communicator of all time. Just like Michael Jordan has missed a couple shots.

But this is kind of funny. But anyway, there's a part in the documentary where he sits down with some kind of young, fiery activist, right? And they kind of, they criticize him. They're like, what are you doing? How can you go and engage with these people and talk to these people and show kindness and respect to these just horrible people, right? That's the old logic. That's kind of what makes most sense. And they were actually really kind of coming at him for it. And I think he looked at him and said, what did he say?

He asked them, well, how many robes have you collected? Right? So he kind of gave him, like, a good little jab there, you know, where I think he kind of got frustrated and just said, okay, so if your way is so great, you know, how come I've collected and changed the minds of 200 kkk members? What have you done? You know? And I think he just, he said that out of frustration and anger. And I think the activist kind of got up and walked away. However, in his fashion, I think he kind of calmed down, and then he went back to his, his old mode.

And instead of engaging just with this side, now he had to kind of engage with his own side of people who didn't agree with him, but more on his belief system, right? So he did the exact same thing where he sat down and he got to know these activists and built rapport with them, and he was able to change their minds and soften their beliefs to see, hey, maybe actually trying this approach and approaching things with more, more empathy, even for your enemies and even people who you view to be abhorrent.

He was able to soften their beliefs as well and kind of get them on his side. So again, there's a lot of power in using some of these effective communication skills, and there's a lot of lessons, I think, in this really powerful story. So I do hope that you go and check out some of the videos I have on communication. Perhaps I'll put out some more coming up this year. But if you tuned in, that's awesome. If you made it through this whole thing, that's awesome. I kind of ranted a little bit, but.

All right, folks, good to see you.